1 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:09,490 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:13,180 from Australia for science and reason 3 00:00:20,450 --> 00:00:16,810 urea hosts Richard Saunders and Stefan 4 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:23,550 hello Richard hey Stefan hey what's 5 00:00:27,179 --> 00:00:25,510 happening I met you won't believe this 6 00:00:29,609 --> 00:00:27,189 you will not believe this look at this 7 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:29,619 box I've got here ah what that looks 8 00:00:37,229 --> 00:00:34,710 pretty easy what is it is our new Canon 9 00:00:41,460 --> 00:00:37,239 high-definition digital video camera 10 00:00:43,740 --> 00:00:41,470 donated to the skeptic zone whoa all 11 00:00:46,590 --> 00:00:43,750 sins I mean when those UFOs come we'll 12 00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:46,600 be ready ah we're going to capture every 13 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:49,660 little piece of phenomenal activity that 14 00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:51,820 ever happens on this planet using his HD 15 00:00:56,340 --> 00:00:54,070 camera one an awesome gifts where'd it 16 00:00:58,049 --> 00:00:56,350 come from this is from a listener who's 17 00:01:01,410 --> 00:00:58,059 a fan of the show well I hope is a fan 18 00:01:02,970 --> 00:01:01,420 of the show Lucas Randall who lives in 19 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:02,980 Victoria works for the Canon company 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:05,410 donated this fabulous camera I can't 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:07,450 wait to get out there and make heaps 22 00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:10,450 more skeptics own videos Oh Lucas you 23 00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:14,440 are the listener on the month now that's 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:16,390 fantastic because of course you lost 25 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:19,090 your you're actually had a stolen din 26 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:22,000 nou ye ugly little HD HD camera I had a 27 00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:23,710 little flip HD camera which was great 28 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:25,990 but unfortunately it was stolen eyes 29 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:28,060 don't lamenting this on Twitter eyes at 30 00:01:32,339 --> 00:01:30,550 all you know it was stolen and Lucas 31 00:01:35,460 --> 00:01:32,349 said look let me come to the rescue and 32 00:01:38,580 --> 00:01:35,470 he did oh well it looks fantastic oh 33 00:01:40,499 --> 00:01:38,590 it's nika so light portable and handy 34 00:01:42,449 --> 00:01:40,509 and full HD in every now because of 35 00:01:45,419 --> 00:01:42,459 course we do do a fair bit of a video 36 00:01:47,070 --> 00:01:45,429 stuff on the side don't we we do we'd be 37 00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:47,080 doing some more now I can tell you just 38 00:01:52,589 --> 00:01:49,720 in time for our trip just in time for 39 00:01:54,870 --> 00:01:52,599 our trip to dragoncon which is coming up 40 00:01:57,029 --> 00:01:54,880 in fact if people want to show their 41 00:02:00,359 --> 00:01:57,039 support for Lucas for such a great offer 42 00:02:04,770 --> 00:02:00,369 they can um visit his blog which is blog 43 00:02:07,499 --> 00:02:04,780 code Nick's org yeah yeah and can't 44 00:02:09,809 --> 00:02:07,509 thank him a million times for us and say 45 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:09,819 you but you're flying over to dragoncon 46 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:11,470 I guess you'll be you'll be sticking the 47 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:13,120 camera out the window and hoping to see 48 00:02:16,430 --> 00:02:14,770 bits of ectoplasm floating around the 49 00:02:20,130 --> 00:02:16,440 plane that's we're pretty cool I will 50 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:20,140 hazel dragon the occasional dragon haha 51 00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:23,050 Yes Doctor Ricci and Kylie Sturgis all 52 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:24,489 the way from Perth were all heading for 53 00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:27,370 dragoncon dad should be fabulous ha the 54 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:30,040 skeptic zone is becoming a global a 55 00:02:33,220 --> 00:02:32,230 global situation that the whole thing 56 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:33,230 everyone's 57 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:34,640 out there and doing stuff all around the 58 00:02:38,170 --> 00:02:36,530 world and it's the in fact the house 59 00:02:40,119 --> 00:02:38,180 kept your movements becoming pretty 60 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:40,129 massive isn't it is and talking about 61 00:02:44,410 --> 00:02:42,230 being global this week we've got to 62 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:44,420 global interviews dr. chrissy wilson 63 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:46,370 flew all the way to London and spoke 64 00:02:51,130 --> 00:02:48,440 with dr. christopher french all about 65 00:02:53,229 --> 00:02:51,140 how the mind works and belief memory and 66 00:02:56,140 --> 00:02:53,239 all that sort of stuff and talking to 67 00:02:58,479 --> 00:02:56,150 dr. carol tavros is our reported joanne 68 00:03:01,030 --> 00:02:58,489 been amoo one of the reports we did from 69 00:03:04,119 --> 00:03:01,040 the amazing meeting eight in las vegas 70 00:03:05,830 --> 00:03:04,129 which was absolutely massive and it's 71 00:03:09,309 --> 00:03:05,840 speaking the way the mind works i mean 72 00:03:12,190 --> 00:03:09,319 for all the overseas listeners us poor 73 00:03:13,809 --> 00:03:12,200 poor citizens down under of constituents 74 00:03:15,819 --> 00:03:13,819 we're suffering from a bit of a bout of 75 00:03:17,710 --> 00:03:15,829 how the mind works with a the whole 76 00:03:19,539 --> 00:03:17,720 election process in limbo at the moment 77 00:03:22,059 --> 00:03:19,549 we have a strange lack of government 78 00:03:23,979 --> 00:03:22,069 don't worry it's amazing like it 79 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:23,989 everyone that they flip-flopped from one 80 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:26,000 side to the other and in the event in 81 00:03:28,420 --> 00:03:27,170 the end I went straight down the middle 82 00:03:31,089 --> 00:03:28,430 and there are no one knows who's in 83 00:03:33,270 --> 00:03:31,099 control yeah I mean we all we want is a 84 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:33,280 prime minister is that too much to ask I 85 00:03:38,379 --> 00:03:36,170 don't know I think I think the days of 86 00:03:39,370 --> 00:03:38,389 adversarial politics of a numbered and 87 00:03:41,620 --> 00:03:39,380 they've got to start working together 88 00:03:42,759 --> 00:03:41,630 but that's just my personal opinion but 89 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:42,769 look let's just get on with the show 90 00:03:46,690 --> 00:03:44,480 let's do the show will let listeners 91 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:46,700 have listened will run out and let's 92 00:03:49,449 --> 00:03:47,930 let's have a little play later the 93 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:49,459 camera yeah that sounds like great fun 94 00:04:04,650 --> 00:03:51,560 let's let's go and do it let's do it all 95 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:07,809 professor Chris French is a psychologist 96 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:10,730 and a vocal skeptic specializing in the 97 00:04:16,090 --> 00:04:12,980 psychology of paranormal beliefs and 98 00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:16,100 experiences he is currently professor of 99 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:17,870 psychology at Goldsmiths College 100 00:04:27,159 --> 00:04:20,690 University of London and that's where 101 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:27,169 dr. Chrissy went to chat with him okay 102 00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:29,810 skeptics and always dr. Christie Wilson 103 00:04:35,379 --> 00:04:32,780 here reporting from London and I'm very 104 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:35,389 exciting today because I've done all the 105 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:37,430 sights of London are doesn't pause and 106 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:38,570 all that malarkey and I went down to 107 00:04:42,370 --> 00:04:41,090 Charles Darwin darwin's house last week 108 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:42,380 as well that was very exciting but 109 00:04:46,719 --> 00:04:44,210 nothing compares the excitement of being 110 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:46,729 back at Goldsmiths some of you will know 111 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:49,990 that that's where i actually did my PhD 112 00:04:54,370 --> 00:04:52,610 under the supervision of professor Chris 113 00:04:57,190 --> 00:04:54,380 French and I'm very excited to say that 114 00:04:59,710 --> 00:04:57,200 I am now II christie's office which is a 115 00:05:01,030 --> 00:04:59,720 bit weird for me and because I haven't 116 00:05:02,860 --> 00:05:01,040 actually been in here for three years 117 00:05:04,629 --> 00:05:02,870 and I did actually spend about four 118 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:04,639 years of my life in and out of this 119 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:06,740 office most of my PhD actually got 120 00:05:10,930 --> 00:05:08,870 written in this office and it hasn't 121 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:10,940 really changed at all I'm some fabulous 122 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:13,850 books line walls of the office a real 123 00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:16,270 treasure trove of material for 124 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:18,889 researchers and academics and so on it's 125 00:05:23,469 --> 00:05:20,510 got some wonderful stuff on the shelf 126 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:23,479 and the office really hasn't changed at 127 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:26,210 all and neither indeed has chris chris 128 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:28,250 is wonderful to see you very nice to see 129 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:31,250 you my dear so we're going to have a 130 00:05:38,170 --> 00:05:34,490 little chat about skeptical stuff when i 131 00:05:39,790 --> 00:05:38,180 left in november two thousand seven um 132 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:39,800 yeah there was a lot of skeptic stuff 133 00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:41,030 going on there were lots of groups 134 00:05:45,909 --> 00:05:43,070 everywhere and it was it was you know 135 00:05:47,830 --> 00:05:45,919 ticking along nicely but as soon as I 136 00:05:50,529 --> 00:05:47,840 did leave and I'm sure the two beds are 137 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:50,539 actually connected everything just kind 138 00:05:55,779 --> 00:05:53,330 of took off and you know coming back 139 00:05:58,390 --> 00:05:55,789 last week and giving the talk accepting 140 00:06:00,879 --> 00:05:58,400 the pub in London um let all the face is 141 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:00,889 brand new and to also change venues and 142 00:06:05,250 --> 00:06:03,080 the venues sound now much much bigger to 143 00:06:07,540 --> 00:06:05,260 accommodate all these lots of new faces 144 00:06:10,180 --> 00:06:07,550 and I only knew a couple of people 145 00:06:12,220 --> 00:06:10,190 really from the old days 146 00:06:14,350 --> 00:06:12,230 oh and it's really taken off their 147 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:14,360 skeptic groups now in and all it seems 148 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:16,750 to be all the major cities in in Britain 149 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:19,820 how do you account for this massive 150 00:06:24,490 --> 00:06:23,000 upsurge in interest at our first thing 151 00:06:26,410 --> 00:06:24,500 to say is that I'm an absolutely agree 152 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:26,420 that over the last couple of years in 153 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:29,360 particular things have just really 154 00:06:35,230 --> 00:06:32,990 really taken off so you just as you say 155 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:35,240 we've got again over two dozen different 156 00:06:38,830 --> 00:06:36,890 branches of skeptics in the pub up and 157 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:38,840 down the country now and I've spoken at 158 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:40,310 lots of them and they're all well 159 00:06:44,230 --> 00:06:42,860 attended they're all active there are 160 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:44,240 various people get involved in various 161 00:06:48,490 --> 00:06:46,310 kinds of campaigns on this issue on that 162 00:06:49,660 --> 00:06:48,500 issue and and that's just the skeptics 163 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:49,670 in the pub thing there's all sorts of 164 00:06:53,190 --> 00:06:50,960 other stuff going on as well with 165 00:06:55,270 --> 00:06:53,200 humanists having conferences and 166 00:06:57,220 --> 00:06:55,280 obviously there are academic colleges 167 00:06:58,840 --> 00:06:57,230 that the whole thing has retaken up one 168 00:07:01,030 --> 00:06:58,850 of the things I'm most excited about is 169 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:01,040 the fact that we've now got animalistic 170 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:03,530 psychology on to the a-level syllabus as 171 00:07:06,820 --> 00:07:05,450 an option which is just brilliant 172 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:06,830 because that means thousands of kids 173 00:07:10,510 --> 00:07:08,120 every year are going to be reading about 174 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:10,520 anomalistic psychology and thinking wow 175 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:12,830 that stuff's really good you know not 176 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:14,960 just parapsychology actually anomalous 177 00:07:19,630 --> 00:07:16,970 it's actually anomalistic psychology 178 00:07:21,190 --> 00:07:19,640 really covers parapsychology as well but 179 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:21,200 the actual title of the option is 180 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:25,730 anomalistic psychology I kind of like to 181 00:07:33,550 --> 00:07:30,650 think that I did it but yeah I mean one 182 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:33,560 of the reasons for it I think there's 183 00:07:39,190 --> 00:07:35,750 lots of different factors that have come 184 00:07:41,860 --> 00:07:39,200 into play I think one important factor 185 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:41,870 is that we're now all just go I mean I 186 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:42,890 know the Internet's been around for a 187 00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:45,650 wee while now but we're also comfortable 188 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:47,360 with it we've got things like Twitter 189 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:49,910 and Facebook at all it just makes people 190 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:52,310 if it's easy for people to organize to 191 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:55,490 get together to hear about things I mean 192 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:57,110 I've got a as you will know we've got 193 00:08:02,110 --> 00:07:58,570 the the psychology of the paranormal 194 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:02,120 email network of which for any of your 195 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:03,410 Lister's they want to sign up if you go 196 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:06,050 to the APR you website which is 197 00:08:21,820 --> 00:08:20,630 www.hyken.com in on maybe recruiting 198 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:21,830 participants if we need their 199 00:08:25,150 --> 00:08:23,510 experiments and so on but 200 00:08:26,380 --> 00:08:25,160 is just one example of the way in the 201 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:26,390 internet it's just revolutionized 202 00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:29,360 everything now on top of that you've 203 00:08:40,210 --> 00:08:35,150 also got I think the fact that our Lord 204 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:40,220 Richard Dawkins very honest seller you 205 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:41,900 may have heard of it walk into the 206 00:08:46,990 --> 00:08:45,740 living here and I mean that I think what 207 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:47,000 I think was kind of part of the whole 208 00:08:53,710 --> 00:08:50,510 thing that atheists and humanists and 209 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:53,720 skeptics now basically do feel that it's 210 00:08:58,710 --> 00:08:56,630 okay for them to speak out to express 211 00:09:01,000 --> 00:08:58,720 their views whereas for a very long time 212 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:01,010 certainly in the UK and I'd imagine is 213 00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:02,930 the same in other countries there was a 214 00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:04,190 general feeling that you don't have a 215 00:09:07,990 --> 00:09:06,140 question people's religious belief so 216 00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:08,000 their behavior they they engage in on 217 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:10,670 religious grounds but I think that part 218 00:09:16,450 --> 00:09:12,610 is a reaction to various kind of 219 00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:16,460 extremist terrorist acts etc people have 220 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:19,220 kind of question those things people are 221 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:21,530 concerned about the direction that you 222 00:09:28,090 --> 00:09:24,890 know education may go in etc etc and I 223 00:09:30,690 --> 00:09:28,100 think that's played into it as well one 224 00:09:33,010 --> 00:09:30,700 of the things i think that one when a 225 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:33,020 movement starts to take off and I'd 226 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:35,330 really don't like the phrase skeptical 227 00:09:39,460 --> 00:09:36,650 movement because it makes it sound like 228 00:09:40,870 --> 00:09:39,470 it's all about a propaganda and so on 229 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:40,880 and it shouldn't be about that you know 230 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:44,150 sometimes maybe it is but when I 231 00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:45,640 movement does start to take off 232 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:49,040 obviously if one or two kind of big 233 00:09:53,230 --> 00:09:51,170 names get involved in it I mean maybe 234 00:09:55,180 --> 00:09:53,240 even big names outside academia so I'm 235 00:09:58,390 --> 00:09:55,190 not just talking about say Richard 236 00:10:01,330 --> 00:09:58,400 Dawkins but when you get say comedians 237 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:01,340 and musicians who also kind of give 238 00:10:05,740 --> 00:10:02,750 their backing and that certainly 239 00:10:08,350 --> 00:10:05,750 happened in the UK on quite a noticeable 240 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:08,360 level you've got people like Robin Ince 241 00:10:13,060 --> 00:10:11,510 in particular as he's a total 242 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:13,070 card-carrying skeptic he's a 243 00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:15,290 self-confessed nerd and he's a very 244 00:10:21,310 --> 00:10:18,560 funny man he's organized all kinds of 245 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:21,320 events he's a comedian stand-up comedian 246 00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:24,890 he's organized events like nine Lessons 247 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:27,560 and Carols for godless people which has 248 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:30,110 now kind of Godwin the last two years 249 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:32,470 roundabout Christmastime surprisingly 250 00:10:37,340 --> 00:10:35,020 and it's just basically he gets along 251 00:10:40,730 --> 00:10:37,350 loads of interesting people whether 252 00:10:43,130 --> 00:10:40,740 be scientists musicians comedians who 253 00:10:44,390 --> 00:10:43,140 all kind of share this basic outlook and 254 00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,400 as a result of that you've got other 255 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:46,320 people i mean you know i'm a kind of 256 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:48,450 very big celebrity names that there are 257 00:10:53,810 --> 00:10:50,310 strong supporters of the skeptical 258 00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:53,820 movement you've got Jonathan Ross daro 259 00:11:01,100 --> 00:10:57,690 Brean Tim Minchin you know i mean i 260 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:01,110 could go on Chris a disturbing very cute 261 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:03,330 evasive course is a huge huge fan of 262 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:04,890 James Randi you know he's always a 263 00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:07,350 well-informed guy yeah that's how when 264 00:11:11,330 --> 00:11:09,360 you advise that borders no we haven't 265 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:11,340 got Ricky although Robbins is ricky 266 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:13,590 gervais his best mate I know they they 267 00:11:17,420 --> 00:11:16,170 is actually yes he it was you know he's 268 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:17,430 worked with him he's known him for years 269 00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:20,970 he's been my man yep so so there is this 270 00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:23,040 kind of network exchange something I 271 00:11:27,230 --> 00:11:25,200 appreciate that it could be partly 272 00:11:29,510 --> 00:11:27,240 because of this you know because we're 273 00:11:31,220 --> 00:11:29,520 fed up with fundamentalist religious 274 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:31,230 types and we want to speak out about 275 00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:32,970 that etcetera etcetera but that doesn't 276 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:36,240 explain fully why there's this massive 277 00:11:40,430 --> 00:11:38,310 interest now it's not a lot of young 278 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:40,440 people to which is great because as you 279 00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:42,050 know it used to be the bastion of white 280 00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:48,990 middle-aged you know but now is you know 281 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:51,360 yeah lots of young people and women's 282 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:53,250 yeah more and more women I mean which is 283 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:55,770 yo I mean one thing that's still missing 284 00:12:00,520 --> 00:11:57,450 is that there is there are not very many 285 00:12:02,450 --> 00:12:00,530 kind of non-white faces at these 286 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:02,460 skeptics meetings and that's something 287 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:04,290 that I think it would be trying it'd be 288 00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:05,880 good to try and do something about but 289 00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:07,950 yeah it is at least good in terms of the 290 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:10,200 kind of age and gender mix that things 291 00:12:14,510 --> 00:12:11,160 are certainly moved in the right 292 00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:14,520 direction why it is very difficult to 293 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:16,800 say I think that I mean it's one of 294 00:12:21,620 --> 00:12:19,650 those you know Malcolm Gladwell wrote a 295 00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:21,630 book called the tipping point which was 296 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:23,760 all about the way that yeah what is it 297 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:27,270 about certain kinds of phenomena whereby 298 00:12:32,510 --> 00:12:30,630 they suddenly kind of take off and you 299 00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:32,520 know become kind of almost a fashionable 300 00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:35,940 and trendy we see that's what worries me 301 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:42,600 um that I wonder sometimes when I go to 302 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:44,730 conferences and talk to lots of people 303 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:48,630 and you know you talk to believers and 304 00:12:51,810 --> 00:12:50,290 you talk to skeptics and 305 00:12:53,519 --> 00:12:51,820 you know you get to know all kinds of 306 00:12:56,129 --> 00:12:53,529 people that are involved in this sort of 307 00:12:59,970 --> 00:12:56,139 business if you like and I what worries 308 00:13:02,430 --> 00:12:59,980 me is that skepticism might go down that 309 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:02,440 road where it does become this quite an 310 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:04,630 activist movement that it does become 311 00:13:10,199 --> 00:13:07,420 something that is fashionable so richard 312 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:10,209 dawkins at the moment is very 313 00:13:16,019 --> 00:13:12,490 fashionable is taken on almost as what 314 00:13:19,079 --> 00:13:16,029 cult status and what worries me is that 315 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:19,089 the skepticism will look up to someone 316 00:13:24,509 --> 00:13:21,880 like that and he will take on this sort 317 00:13:28,379 --> 00:13:24,519 of you even said it yourself Lord Lord 318 00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:28,389 or kings you know and that's that sort 319 00:13:33,420 --> 00:13:30,639 of hero worship if I may use that term 320 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:33,430 is part of the thing that we're trying 321 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:36,610 to guard against isn't it that's a blind 322 00:13:42,569 --> 00:13:39,250 if I may use the word faith in someone 323 00:13:44,189 --> 00:13:42,579 else's opinion is is the is the whole 324 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:44,199 thing that we're trying to avoid and yes 325 00:13:50,009 --> 00:13:47,680 will we want to promote critical 326 00:13:51,930 --> 00:13:50,019 thinking but we also want to promote 327 00:13:54,689 --> 00:13:51,940 individual thinking we want people to 328 00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:54,699 think for themselves rather than just 329 00:13:59,009 --> 00:13:57,190 blindly follow oh absolutely no I mean I 330 00:14:01,710 --> 00:13:59,019 think I mean I can see I can see where 331 00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:01,720 you're coming from and to a certain 332 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:04,360 extent I kind of share those concerns I 333 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:05,649 mean first of all let me just say that 334 00:14:11,579 --> 00:14:09,730 you know I'm like most of the scientists 335 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:11,589 and skeptics I'm a huge fan of Richard 336 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:12,730 Dawkins I'm nothing he writes 337 00:14:18,389 --> 00:14:15,610 beautifully he's you know there are 338 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:18,399 times particularly when he came of doing 339 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:20,620 the skeptical stuff that even though I 340 00:14:24,750 --> 00:14:22,680 may agree with what he's saying i'm not 341 00:14:28,769 --> 00:14:24,760 particularly taken with the way yusei's 342 00:14:30,059 --> 00:14:28,779 it yes now i think that there's I mean I 343 00:14:32,850 --> 00:14:30,069 think there are different kinds of 344 00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:32,860 skeptic and I'm one of the things this 345 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:34,180 is another we I thought about quite a 346 00:14:39,389 --> 00:14:36,970 lot of our PhD student who is doing a 347 00:14:41,460 --> 00:14:39,399 PhD on the psychology of skepticism 348 00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:41,470 because you know we all tend to kind of 349 00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,000 ultimately assume that what needs 350 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:45,040 explaining is belief in this stuff 351 00:14:49,679 --> 00:14:47,470 there's a kind of assumption i think 352 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:49,689 amongst most skeptics that it's the 353 00:14:52,829 --> 00:14:51,310 belief that's the weird thing that needs 354 00:14:54,809 --> 00:14:52,839 explaining is if it's some kind of 355 00:14:57,780 --> 00:14:54,819 deviation from some kind of rational 356 00:14:59,699 --> 00:14:57,790 norm now in fact i'd argue very strongly 357 00:15:02,910 --> 00:14:59,709 that the norm is not one of rationality 358 00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:02,920 we are all inherently irrational and so 359 00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:03,640 there 360 00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:04,840 his question about what is it about this 361 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:07,150 weird bunch of people who actually don't 362 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:10,090 just accept all these are the beliefs in 363 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:12,850 God or the paranormal error else it may 364 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:14,830 be that other people in the surrounding 365 00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:19,210 society tip you know do accept and that 366 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:20,470 raises interesting question one of the 367 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:21,610 things we want to look at is the notion 368 00:15:27,690 --> 00:15:23,260 that there are probably different 369 00:15:32,010 --> 00:15:27,700 subcategories of skeptic and i'm pretty 370 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:32,020 sure for example that you could devise i 371 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:32,980 mean the one things we want to do is 372 00:15:37,380 --> 00:15:34,330 devised a questionnaire that tries to 373 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:37,390 address this and I mean my version of 374 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:39,760 skepticism the one that I always pushing 375 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:41,200 the one I think obviously I would 376 00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:44,260 wouldn't I is the true that the one true 377 00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:47,500 voice of skepticism is is one that does 378 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:49,240 actually except that well yeah look guys 379 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:51,310 we may be wrong and that's really 380 00:15:56,370 --> 00:15:53,410 fundamentally important part of 381 00:15:58,620 --> 00:15:56,380 skepticism for me and that's something 382 00:16:02,040 --> 00:15:58,630 we see that I don't hear very often I'm 383 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,050 afraid I don't hear that skeptical 384 00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:04,480 element from skeptics that often because 385 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:06,400 we could be wrong well absolutely I know 386 00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:08,170 that the definition of belief that i use 387 00:16:12,570 --> 00:16:10,270 in talks is that it's based upon a 388 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:12,580 proposition that doesn't have any 389 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:15,910 conclusive evidence and skepticism is 390 00:16:20,130 --> 00:16:17,290 the same week we can't be absolutely 391 00:16:22,110 --> 00:16:20,140 certain that we're right we can 392 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:22,120 replicate you know the sort of psychic 393 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:24,130 nonsense that Derek agura's of this 394 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:26,050 world do etc but we can't be absolutely 395 00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:31,090 certain sorry oh that's why I worry that 396 00:16:36,030 --> 00:16:34,060 that we are going down maybe a slightly 397 00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:36,040 dangerous road well I think I'm not 398 00:16:39,690 --> 00:16:37,600 think that can happen I mean just in 399 00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:39,700 terms of you know my own kind of 400 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:41,260 personal history on this which you are 401 00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:43,630 obviously aware of I used to be a 402 00:16:48,090 --> 00:16:45,760 believer in all this stuff when I was a 403 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:48,100 teenager I kind of had a vague interest 404 00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:49,870 i'd read the occasional book whatever 405 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:52,240 what's rolling on TV and most of the 406 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:54,010 stuff back then this is kind of in the 407 00:17:00,090 --> 00:16:58,090 early 1650 was obviously it was all very 408 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:00,100 pro paranormal I mean the skeptical 409 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:01,930 movement was not as organized and you 410 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:03,790 rarely heard a skeptical voice and 411 00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:06,550 really what people wanted to read about 412 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:08,470 and this is still predominant the cases 413 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:10,630 they wanted mysteries they wanted the 414 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:12,010 paranormal they wanted ghosts they 415 00:17:15,439 --> 00:17:14,290 wanted UF Rosen and so did I as a as a 416 00:17:18,289 --> 00:17:15,449 teenager 417 00:17:23,539 --> 00:17:18,299 and there were other things i wanted but 418 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:23,549 we won't talk about that but it was the 419 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:24,750 way through could do it a psychology 420 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:27,329 degree where this kind of material was 421 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:30,750 was hardly ever even touched on and I 422 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:33,480 then did a PhD which on a completely 423 00:17:39,549 --> 00:17:35,730 different area and it was while I was 424 00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:39,559 doing a PhD that I read Jamal Cox book 425 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:41,820 parapsychology science or magic still 426 00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:44,850 worth the read but it was while I was 427 00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:47,309 reading that book that the scales fell 428 00:17:51,049 --> 00:17:49,260 from my eyes and I became a 429 00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:51,059 card-carrying skeptic and I think for a 430 00:17:54,889 --> 00:17:52,830 while I became what I would now see have 431 00:17:58,159 --> 00:17:54,899 been a fairly kind of extreme skeptic I 432 00:18:00,860 --> 00:17:58,169 had the view that all parapsychologists 433 00:18:03,470 --> 00:18:00,870 were incompetent they didn't now to run 434 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:03,480 it now I now know quite a lot of 435 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:05,010 parapsychology I don't think that's true 436 00:18:11,060 --> 00:18:08,580 and also the idea that you know anybody 437 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:11,070 who made some kind of claim that they 438 00:18:14,509 --> 00:18:12,690 had psychic abilities was a deliberate 439 00:18:16,549 --> 00:18:14,519 fraud you know now I'm not saying that's 440 00:18:19,639 --> 00:18:16,559 Jamal Cox fault so minutes but I was my 441 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:19,649 you know that was my take on reading 442 00:18:23,149 --> 00:18:21,289 those kind of books reading other books 443 00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:23,159 reading stuff in The Skeptical Inquirer 444 00:18:26,899 --> 00:18:25,260 but I did have that opinion that was 445 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:26,909 very kind of you're really very very 446 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:28,289 negative about anybody who had these 447 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:30,750 beliefs are made these claims I like to 448 00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:32,580 think I've kind of mellowed a bit and 449 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:35,039 it's become a bit more moderate but I'm 450 00:18:40,009 --> 00:18:37,830 aware of the fact that when I when I was 451 00:18:42,769 --> 00:18:40,019 an extreme skeptic I didn't really like 452 00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:42,779 skeptics like I am now I would have seen 453 00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:45,120 myself as being really wishy-washy then 454 00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:47,990 one thing is that people like simple 455 00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:50,070 clarity they're like things in black and 456 00:18:55,009 --> 00:18:53,880 white so if you can actually say well we 457 00:18:57,049 --> 00:18:55,019 know it's all a load of old rubbish 458 00:18:58,820 --> 00:18:57,059 don't we that's a nice simple 459 00:19:03,700 --> 00:18:58,830 straightforward answer words and you've 460 00:19:05,899 --> 00:19:03,710 got some you know kind of nitpicker 461 00:19:07,580 --> 00:19:05,909 scientist who say well i think is 462 00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:07,590 probably but there's nothing in this 463 00:19:10,879 --> 00:19:09,000 claim but that just might be there some 464 00:19:12,649 --> 00:19:10,889 quite intriguing and data over here and 465 00:19:13,789 --> 00:19:12,659 you know some so-and-so seems to get 466 00:19:15,710 --> 00:19:13,799 replica files I don't know how you 467 00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:15,720 explain away that particular phenomenon 468 00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:18,840 and so on then it kind of muddies things 469 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:19,980 you don't really want that and I 470 00:19:23,299 --> 00:19:21,450 certainly wouldn't want to that them but 471 00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:23,309 I mean I'm afraid that's the now that's 472 00:19:27,289 --> 00:19:25,620 the state i'm at now i'm open to the 473 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:27,299 idea that i mind you I don't think I a 474 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:27,810 movie 475 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:30,300 no because I'm thinking believing things 476 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:32,420 that they think are wrong oh they now 477 00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,940 but it would take yeah I mean what would 478 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:37,200 what would convince me and I've written 479 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:38,850 a chapter about this recently for a book 480 00:19:42,170 --> 00:19:39,930 you know what would it take to convince 481 00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:42,180 me that sigh exists well yeah I don't 482 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:44,460 think too much after over one in 20 483 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:47,330 years of research for a single 484 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:50,640 replicable robust demonstration of 485 00:19:54,890 --> 00:19:52,530 paranormal forces and if that happens 486 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:54,900 well so be it ok there's skeptics will 487 00:19:58,220 --> 00:19:56,730 have egg on their face and it'll be a 488 00:20:00,350 --> 00:19:58,230 bit embarrassing but I'd like to think 489 00:20:02,090 --> 00:20:00,360 that would be scientific enough to be 490 00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:02,100 able to say okay we were wrong let's get 491 00:20:05,930 --> 00:20:03,420 on with the study this is really really 492 00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:05,940 interesting stuff whether we would or 493 00:20:11,330 --> 00:20:07,740 not I'm honest I honestly don't know 494 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:11,340 there's a huge bias against anything 495 00:20:18,020 --> 00:20:14,690 paranormal within science and even if 496 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:18,030 the even if it is in fact the case that 497 00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:20,430 paranormal forces don't exist I don't 498 00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:22,440 think it's necessarily the case that the 499 00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:25,140 people who express opinions optimum 500 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:28,860 position of relative ignorance I'm not 501 00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:30,450 talking about here but anybody who is 502 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:31,860 going to you know that mean that there 503 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:34,050 are lots of people like Jim or [\h__\h] and 504 00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:36,390 ray hyman Richard Wiseman sue Blackmore 505 00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:38,280 they're not talking from position of 506 00:20:42,860 --> 00:20:39,990 ignorance they put lots of time into 507 00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:42,870 studying the data thinking about and so 508 00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:45,240 on but there are others who shall remain 509 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:46,740 nameless for the purpose of this 510 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:49,110 interview who make pronouncements from 511 00:20:54,260 --> 00:20:52,890 on high that are actually just not true 512 00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:54,270 they've not looked at the evidence they 513 00:20:58,250 --> 00:20:55,590 won't look at the evidence because they 514 00:21:00,080 --> 00:20:58,260 know in advance what the conclusion it 515 00:21:01,940 --> 00:21:00,090 well that's not science so as I'm 516 00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:01,950 concerned no no that's no good is it 517 00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:04,020 that's not good for the movement we do 518 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:07,380 exactly yeah all right um what are you 519 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:08,850 working on at the moment anything in 520 00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:11,250 particularly major projects did you 521 00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:13,350 write logs did you get the anomalies we 522 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:15,000 are right in the book we are right now I 523 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:16,740 say we because I now have a co-author on 524 00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:18,810 that one that's a good way of moving the 525 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:23,580 project along I get somewhere so that we 526 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:25,410 are making progress with and I'm hoping 527 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:27,630 to actually also write another one gonna 528 00:21:32,420 --> 00:21:29,010 finish that one of which will be more of 529 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:32,430 a kind of popular science type approach 530 00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:34,170 to an honest excite ecology but aimed at 531 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:35,340 a general audience rather than being a 532 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:37,590 textbook there's the good old skeptic 533 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:39,570 magazine of course which is still going 534 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:40,700 strong 535 00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:43,670 and we revamp that a while back to mark 536 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:46,070 the fact that it had been in existence 537 00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:50,810 for 21 years and since we've revamped it 538 00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:52,580 were gone to 28 pages to 40 with a 539 00:21:59,560 --> 00:21:57,230 stellar editorial advisory board and the 540 00:22:00,940 --> 00:21:59,570 number of paid subscribers has gone up 541 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:00,950 by over fifty percent so that's all 542 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:04,550 going well in a year we also produced a 543 00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:06,710 best of the skeptic volume called why 544 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:10,550 statues weep and that's got kind of us 545 00:22:15,490 --> 00:22:12,410 yes I going back over the over the past 546 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:15,500 21 years and we've put together you know 547 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:17,450 some of the best pieces from the skeptic 548 00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:20,210 over that time period um yeah you know 549 00:22:25,050 --> 00:22:22,190 in terms of research which is a lot 550 00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:25,060 going on I won't go through all of it 551 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:28,880 the I've just javis this morning this 552 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:30,500 very morning I've just been doing a 553 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:32,510 presentation looking at kind of what's a 554 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:36,220 very promising new line of research 555 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:38,030 probably quite a lot of your listeners 556 00:22:42,730 --> 00:22:39,710 will be in this over into psychology 557 00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:42,740 will be familiar with the concept of 558 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:47,150 inattentional blindness this is where if 559 00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:49,390 you're concentrating on one particular 560 00:22:54,190 --> 00:22:52,640 task you may just completely fail to 561 00:22:56,110 --> 00:22:54,200 notice something that is task yet 562 00:22:57,250 --> 00:22:56,120 relevant but something you think you 563 00:22:59,890 --> 00:22:57,260 would see in the classic demonstration 564 00:23:01,090 --> 00:22:59,900 of this is a video clip which you can 565 00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:01,100 probably get you just killed the 566 00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:03,230 internet where you see people standing 567 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:07,940 around in either in rack and I think 568 00:23:11,860 --> 00:23:09,290 these are black shirts and white shirts 569 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:11,870 in a gym bouncing balls and throwing 570 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:13,490 passing balls to each other and the 571 00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:15,710 participants task is just to count the 572 00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:17,240 number of times that the people in the 573 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:19,940 white shirts pass the ball very simple 574 00:23:24,460 --> 00:23:22,370 task and you let them watch this clip it 575 00:23:26,350 --> 00:23:24,470 probably last about 30 seconds or so and 576 00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:26,360 you ask them how many times they give 577 00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:27,950 the answer and then you say did you see 578 00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:30,710 anything the odd well your do say 579 00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:35,120 anything else and what half of the 580 00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:38,750 people who you ask that question to fail 581 00:23:43,930 --> 00:23:41,030 to report is that halfway through the 582 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:43,940 scene a person comes on is a real assuit 583 00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:45,770 stands in the middle of the group for 584 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:48,080 view oops their chest for a few seconds 585 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:50,270 and then walks off as a kind of thing 586 00:23:54,190 --> 00:23:53,090 you think you'd see but half the 587 00:23:58,600 --> 00:23:54,200 population 588 00:24:03,040 --> 00:23:58,610 out now the thing that I've been doing 589 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:03,050 recently is looking to there's been a 590 00:24:06,970 --> 00:24:04,550 lot of research on inattentional 591 00:24:08,620 --> 00:24:06,980 blindness but very little of it has 592 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:08,630 actually addressed the question of what 593 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:11,170 kind of people might be more susceptible 594 00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:15,110 intentional blindness and I was familiar 595 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:18,590 with the concept of absorption which is 596 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:20,510 a personality trait that refers to the 597 00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:22,730 degree to which you can completely lose 598 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:25,640 yourself in say a book or TV program 599 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:27,290 when you're watching it or whatever and 600 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:29,180 cut off the outside world like that kind 601 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:30,410 of sounded quite similar to me so I 602 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:31,970 thought well I'd expect those two to 603 00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:34,370 correlate and the nicely dry point of 604 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:35,990 view is absorption is known to correlate 605 00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:37,730 with paranoid relief and reports of 606 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:39,470 paranormal experience so we basically 607 00:24:44,590 --> 00:24:41,920 just did an attentional blindness study 608 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:44,600 using a kind of similar kind of task to 609 00:24:51,790 --> 00:24:48,770 the one I've just described and if you 610 00:24:53,770 --> 00:24:51,800 compare the intentionally blind with the 611 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:53,780 Norma intentionally blind the 612 00:25:00,580 --> 00:24:56,290 inattention align do as predicted score 613 00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:00,590 very significantly higher in terms of 614 00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:02,540 absorption and they also score 615 00:25:06,850 --> 00:25:04,340 significantly higher in terms of 616 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:06,860 paranormal experience nice time and then 617 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:08,330 we kind of depth with a follow-up to 618 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:09,500 replicate that to make sure it was a 619 00:25:13,270 --> 00:25:11,330 really effect and indeed it is in the 620 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,280 second experiment we also included in a 621 00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,520 measure of working memory capacity 622 00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:17,600 because the idea is that if you've got a 623 00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:19,820 low working memory capacity all your 624 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:21,470 cognitive resources have taken up on the 625 00:25:26,290 --> 00:25:22,910 primary task so you're less likely to 626 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:26,300 see the distractor and a game we 627 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:28,610 replicated the results and we found that 628 00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:32,810 the as in line with previous research by 629 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:35,600 other people that the working memory 630 00:25:39,850 --> 00:25:37,910 capacity was lower for the inattention 631 00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:39,860 he blind than for the people who who 632 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:41,990 spotted the the irrelevance it was they 633 00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:43,970 also liked you to score higher on 634 00:25:47,650 --> 00:25:45,980 absorption as well yeah we replicated 635 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:47,660 the same effects that we've got in the 636 00:25:51,610 --> 00:25:49,190 first experiment the same experiment and 637 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:51,620 we also got differences on welcome em 638 00:25:55,690 --> 00:25:53,090 across it and we also found that there 639 00:25:57,970 --> 00:25:55,700 was a significant correlation negative 640 00:26:00,220 --> 00:25:57,980 correlation between paranormal relief 641 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:00,230 and something as basic as working memory 642 00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:02,510 capacity in other words the lower your 643 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:04,280 working memory capacity the more likely 644 00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:05,770 you are to believe in the paranormal 645 00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:08,200 well tell there's a lot of follow up 646 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:09,520 with you on hats that was that was good 647 00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:10,720 but there's lots of other stuff going on 648 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:12,520 as well we've got so if people are 649 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:14,610 interested in checking out what 650 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:16,750 professor professor French and 651 00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:18,880 colleagues are up to best place to check 652 00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:21,280 first is EAP are you yeah so the other 653 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:24,870 game just to it's a www Goldsmith AC UK 654 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:27,850 /ap are you and you can come download 655 00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:30,910 publications from there you can we've 656 00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:32,800 got some online lectures there we have 657 00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:34,840 an amazing speakers program and wherever 658 00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:36,430 possible we actually record them and put 659 00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:39,670 them online so there's there's lots of 660 00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:41,440 lots of goodies there for people and 661 00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:43,720 they can sign up for the reunion your 662 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:45,700 most fantastic Chris it's been a 663 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:47,650 pleasure thank you very very much but I 664 00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:49,210 going by your drink now that's a great 665 00:27:00,180 --> 00:26:51,580 idea alright I will return to your 666 00:27:03,180 --> 00:27:00,190 Syrian listeners by there are many 667 00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:03,190 universes in the multiverse but aren't 668 00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:05,800 you glad you're in this one listening to 669 00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:13,600 the skeptics either crikey this is 670 00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:16,900 Richard Saunders from down under former 671 00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:21,270 telly celeb current podcaster and future 672 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:25,240 bushranger well wacko those bombs are 673 00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:28,330 blokes in the US of A have invited dr. 674 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:31,740 Richie and myself to skeptics in the pub 675 00:27:39,270 --> 00:27:35,890 Monday 30 august two thousand and ten at 676 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:39,280 the Beachcomber cafe at Crystal Cove 677 00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:43,450 newport beach california at 19 o'clock 678 00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:46,480 whatever that means come and knock back 679 00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:48,460 a few cold eeze with us while we give 680 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:51,160 you the drum about those Drago pulleys 681 00:28:10,870 --> 00:27:55,090 in Australia no raw prawns we are fair 682 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:14,330 dr. Carol Tavis is an American social 683 00:28:19,789 --> 00:28:16,860 psychologist and author she co-authored 684 00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:19,799 the book mistakes were made but not by 685 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:22,470 me she received her PhD in social 686 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:24,420 psychology from the University of 687 00:28:29,950 --> 00:28:26,910 Michigan and has taught psychology at 688 00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:29,960 the University of California Los Angeles 689 00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:32,340 reporter joanne bed amoo caught up with 690 00:28:43,159 --> 00:28:41,280 Carol cameras at the amazing mediate dr. 691 00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:43,169 karl-thomas welcome to the skeptics own 692 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:46,020 podcast we're here at tam 8 how you 693 00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:48,450 enjoying the convention it's been quite 694 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:51,390 it's fuzzy and the definitely fans what 695 00:28:55,460 --> 00:28:53,370 could be better it's an amazing 696 00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:55,470 experience it's my first one so I am 697 00:29:01,640 --> 00:28:58,470 reasonably overwhelmed myself edited all 698 00:29:03,409 --> 00:29:01,650 day long in rapt attention to every 699 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:03,419 speaker I can't I mean it was just 700 00:29:06,110 --> 00:29:05,220 fabulous there I was at the end of the 701 00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:06,120 day I thought everybody's going to be 702 00:29:11,030 --> 00:29:08,400 sleeping in their seats and no everybody 703 00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:11,040 was why awake and had you been to 704 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:13,020 previous stance and I've your first as 705 00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,510 well it is a rather a little experience 706 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:17,520 and it's a delight to see so many people 707 00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:20,610 so passionate about human beings and 708 00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:21,960 about signs and everything all together 709 00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:25,020 so it's very exciting one of the things 710 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:27,480 I guess starting off with your book 711 00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:30,570 mistakes were made but not by me I found 712 00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,480 an absolutely fascinating read and as I 713 00:29:37,010 --> 00:29:35,520 think I think it was held bid luck when 714 00:29:38,690 --> 00:29:37,020 he introduced you when you gave your 715 00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:38,700 talk early so that is a must read for 716 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:42,480 all skeptics and and I I think I can 717 00:29:45,890 --> 00:29:44,610 absolutely agree with that when you gave 718 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:45,900 your talk one of the things you talked 719 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:48,570 about were the three hard wide by seas 720 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:52,130 of the brain and I found that a 721 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:56,090 fascinating idea in terms of the concept 722 00:30:00,640 --> 00:29:58,130 cognitive dissonance and how that 723 00:30:04,390 --> 00:30:00,650 relates to us as skeptics and as human 724 00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:04,400 beings people who feel plate talk today 725 00:30:09,370 --> 00:30:07,279 and then heard you I think would be 726 00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:09,380 aware of one of the things that's come 727 00:30:13,090 --> 00:30:11,240 to the attention of some of the 728 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:13,100 prominent people in the skeptical 729 00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:16,730 community is how skeptics can be 730 00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:19,760 affected by cognitive dissonance and I 731 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:24,559 am interested to hear how you what your 732 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:27,650 views are on how we are skeptics can 733 00:30:32,919 --> 00:30:30,830 hold foolish beliefs well here's here's 734 00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:32,929 where dissonance is so important to 735 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:35,390 understand what my colleague and friend 736 00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:38,330 Eliot arenson showed with cognitive to 737 00:30:43,779 --> 00:30:41,270 Canada dissonance is what you feel if 738 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:43,789 your best friend hates your favorite 739 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:47,480 movie yeah you want to either think less 740 00:30:50,889 --> 00:30:49,130 of the movie or less of your friend 741 00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,899 right because you want to put them in 742 00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:52,640 harmony that's trivial form of 743 00:30:57,460 --> 00:30:55,039 dissonance where it really matters is 744 00:31:01,029 --> 00:30:57,470 when some important central part of the 745 00:31:03,310 --> 00:31:01,039 self-concept you think of yourself as an 746 00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:03,320 expert in this or that you think of 747 00:31:08,289 --> 00:31:06,049 yourself as professionally competent or 748 00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:08,299 really good needlepoint whatever the 749 00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:11,840 skill or quality is if that's called 750 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:14,720 into question then our impulse is going 751 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:20,090 to be to justify the mistake we made or 752 00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:23,049 the act of in competence rather than 753 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:27,289 welcome the evidence now it's the 754 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:30,529 self-concept that's paramount as 755 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:32,330 Elliott's pointed out people who have a 756 00:31:37,149 --> 00:31:34,850 low self concept don't like information 757 00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:37,159 showing how well they've done we've all 758 00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:39,049 had that experience ourselves or with 759 00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:42,320 friends look you just want the Pulitzer 760 00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:43,460 Prize doesn't that mean you're a 761 00:31:47,529 --> 00:31:45,260 wonderful writer no it was just a fluke 762 00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:47,539 I mean that's what depression is you the 763 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:50,000 self how does it won't budge now the 764 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:53,450 danger for skeptics is that if we see 765 00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:56,770 ourselves if we pride ourselves on our 766 00:32:04,180 --> 00:31:58,940 open-mindedness on how we aren't have a 767 00:32:07,149 --> 00:32:04,190 fool that how you know we are thoughts 768 00:32:09,940 --> 00:32:07,159 are based on evidence and then we've 769 00:32:12,639 --> 00:32:09,950 shown that merely we are wrong and that 770 00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:12,649 we were full but we have an even greater 771 00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:15,190 incentive to dispute that eminence so 772 00:32:21,899 --> 00:32:18,080 skeptics aren't immune scientists aren't 773 00:32:26,370 --> 00:32:21,909 immune nobody is immune to the 774 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:26,380 discomfort the painful discomfort of 775 00:32:32,510 --> 00:32:29,250 realizing we screwed up 776 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:32,520 and so difficult is that to accept that 777 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:34,890 that is why dissonance and its reduction 778 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:36,810 is really an unconscious process for the 779 00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:40,290 most part it hums along allowing us to 780 00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:42,240 just check out information we don't want 781 00:32:50,150 --> 00:32:45,630 without or even being aware I guess then 782 00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:50,160 ego is a huge part of it and you talk in 783 00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:53,430 the book about george w bush as an 784 00:32:59,210 --> 00:32:56,760 example of how despite all evidence that 785 00:33:03,800 --> 00:32:59,220 demonstrated there were no WMDs and and 786 00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:03,810 so on he was incapable of saying to the 787 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:07,350 public i was wrong yes he just changed 788 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:09,510 his justifications for the war well 789 00:33:11,930 --> 00:33:10,530 there was this reason and this was in 790 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:11,940 this week I know all of our predictions 791 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:13,290 were wrong they didn't treat us in the 792 00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:14,730 streets dancing and they didn't throw 793 00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:16,350 roses in our feet and it wasn't over in 794 00:33:20,330 --> 00:33:17,790 six weeks and it didn't cost twenty-five 795 00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:20,340 dollars what all those predictions were 796 00:33:25,550 --> 00:33:22,740 wrong but that the war was right 797 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:25,560 nonetheless it's very interesting the 798 00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:30,810 only I mean only by two purdum 799 00:33:35,550 --> 00:33:33,520 criticisms we've had of our book 800 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:35,560 have come from Bush supporters really 801 00:33:38,970 --> 00:33:37,210 it's very it is a perfect example of 802 00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:38,980 cognitive dissonance just as you 803 00:33:44,810 --> 00:33:42,760 probably that predict they saw criticism 804 00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:44,820 of what they saw as criticism of bush 805 00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:46,990 but they didn't see that we're equally 806 00:33:52,410 --> 00:33:48,880 likely to criticize Lyndon Johnson a 807 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:52,420 Democrat or democratic prosecuting 808 00:33:58,650 --> 00:33:55,810 attorneys you know it's it's that's Hut 809 00:34:01,610 --> 00:33:58,660 descendants works we notice insults to 810 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:01,620 our own beliefs or political party and 811 00:34:06,030 --> 00:34:04,570 conclude the other persons do not there 812 00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:06,040 well you've got to just saved me from a 813 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:07,870 question which was actually exactly that 814 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:09,010 that when you're ideologically driven 815 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:10,990 you know particularly if you're going to 816 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:12,970 look at the sort of obvious examples of 817 00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:16,510 left versus right I guess also if you as 818 00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,159 a social psychologist there's a view of 819 00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:20,560 the humanities perhaps as you know being 820 00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:22,870 a soft area and and and someone from the 821 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:25,720 right perhaps may also feel threatened 822 00:34:31,380 --> 00:34:27,490 by some of that that I don't know that 823 00:34:34,169 --> 00:34:31,390 for certain but I guess that something 824 00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:34,179 like that well an idea of attacking that 825 00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:36,190 would be quite you're asking if there 826 00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:37,840 are personality differences in the 827 00:34:42,899 --> 00:34:40,030 ability to tolerate dissonance and 828 00:34:45,630 --> 00:34:42,909 discomfort and the authoritarian 829 00:34:49,139 --> 00:34:45,640 personality the authoritarian person 830 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:49,149 doesn't want any discrepant or 831 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:51,050 disconfirming evidence 832 00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:53,210 they'll shoot the messenger home rather 833 00:35:00,890 --> 00:34:58,609 but we're all of us vulnerable to it see 834 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:00,900 where this matters in politics here in 835 00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,550 when George Bush spotted the geneva 836 00:35:11,830 --> 00:35:09,200 convention by condoning torture which 837 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:11,840 was it was unmistakeably tortured our 838 00:35:17,609 --> 00:35:15,050 own intelligence agencies in their 839 00:35:21,390 --> 00:35:19,289 it showed clearly that the US military 840 00:35:24,059 --> 00:35:21,400 was committing acts of torture and Bush 841 00:35:26,609 --> 00:35:24,069 said we don't torture we use an 842 00:35:27,569 --> 00:35:26,619 alternative set of procedures now what 843 00:35:30,299 --> 00:35:27,579 he was saying is we're the good guys 844 00:35:33,779 --> 00:35:30,309 good guys don't torture therefore we 845 00:35:36,809 --> 00:35:33,789 don't torture to observers this is 846 00:35:39,329 --> 00:35:36,819 playing with words but that's what 847 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:39,339 justification us tification is he really 848 00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:42,730 thought that we're a government we're 849 00:35:45,779 --> 00:35:44,440 the good people and so we don't torture 850 00:35:47,940 --> 00:35:45,789 and if we do torture it's for a good 851 00:35:51,539 --> 00:35:47,950 cause or for the right reasons and now 852 00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,549 what happened was Bush's followers had 853 00:35:55,950 --> 00:35:53,920 to support him or they would have been a 854 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:55,960 dissident I don't believe the United 855 00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:57,130 States should be committing acts of 856 00:35:59,759 --> 00:35:58,089 torture and violating the Geneva 857 00:36:02,130 --> 00:35:59,769 Convention but my president has done 858 00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:02,140 this therefore the torture must be okay 859 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:05,079 and in that way that is how the soul of 860 00:36:09,989 --> 00:36:07,569 the nation is corrupted step by step 861 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:09,999 down the pyramid that we described in 862 00:36:15,289 --> 00:36:13,630 the book take one step and pretty soon 863 00:36:17,849 --> 00:36:15,299 the whole country as a whole is on a 864 00:36:20,249 --> 00:36:17,859 corrupt I suppose you're equally saying 865 00:36:21,870 --> 00:36:20,259 I would never condone torture so my 866 00:36:23,999 --> 00:36:21,880 government couldn't be torturing any of 867 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:24,009 us right exactly there's also that's 868 00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:25,690 another part of the way we do some 869 00:36:33,539 --> 00:36:29,440 business I have not yet read your book 870 00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:33,549 on anger but it seems that that is quite 871 00:36:38,009 --> 00:36:35,920 a driving force behind taking action and 872 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:38,019 I wondered when you know when we become 873 00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,210 angry enough about an issue we're more 874 00:36:45,569 --> 00:36:42,240 likely to become involved in activism 875 00:36:49,230 --> 00:36:45,579 but how can that anger be a negative 876 00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:49,240 force in how we take action well in my 877 00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:52,180 book I talk about the uses of anger and 878 00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:55,390 the abuses of anger in the case of great 879 00:37:01,529 --> 00:36:57,910 social movements for justice they all 880 00:37:05,029 --> 00:37:01,539 begin in anger feminism civil rights 881 00:37:07,529 --> 00:37:05,039 movement black rights in your country 882 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:07,539 well every country that has had to deal 883 00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:09,609 with the rights of minorities have been 884 00:37:15,740 --> 00:37:12,880 oppressed for centuries and so put those 885 00:37:18,269 --> 00:37:15,750 movements are born with anger and a 886 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:18,279 realization that a massive injustice has 887 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:19,510 been committed 888 00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:21,370 and then a determination to set it right 889 00:37:27,110 --> 00:37:24,520 in some way as as many have observed 890 00:37:30,410 --> 00:37:27,120 about social movements anger is 891 00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:30,420 necessary to ignite a social movement 892 00:37:37,410 --> 00:37:33,580 but it isn't what you want over the long 893 00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:37,420 haul you want I quote one wonderful 894 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:39,790 writer in that book who said what is 895 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:42,460 wanted is a little flare of anger enough 896 00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:44,410 to keep you going but not so that 897 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:48,550 consumes you makes you crazy because in 898 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:51,850 the next phase of any social movement 899 00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:54,970 for justice or change the next question 900 00:37:59,850 --> 00:37:57,280 is what do we do to persuade the 901 00:38:03,540 --> 00:37:59,860 opposition what do we do now to reach 902 00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:03,550 our goals not the quality of an apology 903 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:04,750 from the government whatever they may be 904 00:38:10,530 --> 00:38:08,710 and at some point ranching and railing 905 00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:10,540 and marching the streets isn't effective 906 00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:14,380 and so anger has a time and place and 907 00:38:19,170 --> 00:38:16,660 then so does persuasion and other 908 00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:19,180 tactics and that goes to I guess the 909 00:38:24,330 --> 00:38:22,270 skeptical movement where we are now in 910 00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:24,340 terms of for example issues like dealing 911 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:26,200 with the anti-vaccine movement which 912 00:38:34,830 --> 00:38:29,320 which brings out intense and on both 913 00:38:38,250 --> 00:38:34,840 sides and I've witness arguments both 914 00:38:42,090 --> 00:38:38,260 online and on a face face to face level 915 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:42,100 and it worries me that that anger is 916 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:46,210 overriding the message of education and 917 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:48,970 it's a it's an emotional but the point 918 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:50,890 for me because just this week I had a 919 00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:52,650 conversation with a friend 920 00:38:58,910 --> 00:38:55,260 I did not realize more an acquaintance 921 00:39:01,880 --> 00:38:58,920 than friend who I did not realize has a 922 00:39:03,319 --> 00:39:01,890 nine year old autistic grandson and what 923 00:39:04,549 --> 00:39:03,329 began is a little discussion about 924 00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:04,559 becksie I don't know is sort of 925 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:06,420 something on the side you know and 926 00:39:12,380 --> 00:39:10,410 pretty soon I found her I found us in an 927 00:39:16,789 --> 00:39:12,390 argument that was decidedly unpleasant 928 00:39:19,450 --> 00:39:16,799 she wasn't listening to me she she 929 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:19,460 misheard much of what I said but but 930 00:39:25,609 --> 00:39:22,650 what I came away from that discussion 931 00:39:27,769 --> 00:39:25,619 understanding was she was seeing me as 932 00:39:29,769 --> 00:39:27,779 the smug know-it-all scientist what 933 00:39:34,510 --> 00:39:29,779 vaccines have been acquitted of 934 00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:34,520 responsibility for autism smug smile 935 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:39,020 and she's a woman who has lived with 936 00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:41,330 this autistic child in the suffering 937 00:39:47,710 --> 00:39:42,920 that that child has caused his parents 938 00:39:50,050 --> 00:39:47,720 in her for nine years Who am I a skeptic 939 00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:50,060 wandering and saying I'm really worried 940 00:39:53,710 --> 00:39:52,070 about vex you know that not how people 941 00:39:55,450 --> 00:39:53,720 are vaccinating their children because 942 00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:55,460 it's causing a different problem and 943 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:02,330 doctors have lied so much to parents of 944 00:40:05,660 --> 00:40:03,810 autistic children because they don't 945 00:40:07,340 --> 00:40:05,670 know nothing about what it's causes are 946 00:40:09,410 --> 00:40:07,350 what ifs treatments our parents have 947 00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,420 heard all kinds of prep for years 948 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:11,280 parents of autistic children so why 949 00:40:15,020 --> 00:40:13,170 should they now believe doctors telling 950 00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:15,030 them that the other vaccines are okay 951 00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:17,160 and I suddenly saw this from her point 952 00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:19,380 of view with far more compassion than I 953 00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:21,060 had helped on this issue going into it 954 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:24,720 you know I saw how she saw me I saw what 955 00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:27,990 made her so angry about me and I hope I 956 00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:30,420 convey what my concerns were that 957 00:40:35,650 --> 00:40:33,150 there's a great danger if people are 958 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:35,660 going to stop vaccinating their children 959 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:38,490 but that that is quite separate from you 960 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:42,690 know i'm having some empathy here for 961 00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:44,370 how horrible it is to live an autistic 962 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:48,510 child so really in taking on people who 963 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:50,310 we're trying to win over we need to try 964 00:40:55,490 --> 00:40:52,530 and see the world through their eyes you 965 00:40:56,819 --> 00:40:55,500 want to understand what their belief is 966 00:40:59,660 --> 00:40:56,829 serving for them 967 00:41:04,859 --> 00:40:59,670 what is the function of their belief 968 00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:04,869 that this is so because before you take 969 00:41:09,809 --> 00:41:06,940 it away you have to have a replacement 970 00:41:15,420 --> 00:41:09,819 for it if it's a belief that is a 971 00:41:17,729 --> 00:41:15,430 central driving force for them they're 972 00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:17,739 not going to yield it readily unless you 973 00:41:23,290 --> 00:41:19,160 have a better 974 00:41:25,210 --> 00:41:23,300 I mean if you can say Maxine's are 975 00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:25,220 absolutely safe and what really is the 976 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:26,720 caught thing here and not doesn't is 977 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:29,930 something else you know but you need to 978 00:41:34,990 --> 00:41:32,810 know where they're coming right I've 979 00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:35,000 ever heard in an interview or it may 980 00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:36,920 have been in your book you talked about 981 00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:39,950 an example of I think was mothers who 982 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:42,500 disagree on whether to look after the 983 00:41:47,410 --> 00:41:45,170 children at home or whether to go back 984 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:47,420 to work again one of the things that I 985 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:49,430 felt seem to be behind this was the 986 00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:51,370 splitting of issues into two 987 00:41:57,700 --> 00:41:53,990 diametrically opposite points of view 988 00:42:00,250 --> 00:41:57,710 and I wondered you know is this really 989 00:42:02,470 --> 00:42:00,260 an issue where we are we find it hard to 990 00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:02,480 see the gray areas we find it hard to 991 00:42:07,180 --> 00:42:05,240 view the world as a complex thing we 992 00:42:10,330 --> 00:42:07,190 like to just make things into simplistic 993 00:42:12,610 --> 00:42:10,340 arguments well as you know in the book 994 00:42:14,410 --> 00:42:12,620 and in my talks I've always used this 995 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:14,420 metaphor of the pyramid I find in very 996 00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,310 compelling and I people always tell me 997 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:18,560 it suddenly makes things clear them the 998 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:20,090 pyramid is simply this you have two 999 00:42:23,740 --> 00:42:21,650 people at the top of the pyramid and 1000 00:42:25,570 --> 00:42:23,750 they have to make a decision and they 1001 00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:25,580 you know should i go to work with this 1002 00:42:31,390 --> 00:42:27,920 child or should i stay at home 1003 00:42:32,890 --> 00:42:31,400 I blow the whistle on these corrupt 1004 00:42:35,980 --> 00:42:32,900 practices and work or should I shut up 1005 00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:35,990 you know should I believe in vaccines or 1006 00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:37,760 dangerous or should I not okay have 1007 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:38,780 these questions and then you make a 1008 00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:40,609 decision should I change I'm watching 1009 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:42,980 the minute you make a decision you will 1010 00:42:48,190 --> 00:42:45,530 justify that decision as being the right 1011 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:48,200 one for you now what happens then is the 1012 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:51,410 biases of the mind click right in to 1013 00:42:56,319 --> 00:42:53,450 make you feel that that decision was the 1014 00:42:59,200 --> 00:42:56,329 best and wisest and only decision and 1015 00:43:01,180 --> 00:42:59,210 you will now only see evidence that that 1016 00:43:03,579 --> 00:43:01,190 decision was right and you will discount 1017 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:03,589 evidence that you might have been wrong 1018 00:43:09,789 --> 00:43:06,710 so over time is that these two people at 1019 00:43:11,799 --> 00:43:09,799 the top of a pyramid overtime just to 1020 00:43:13,930 --> 00:43:11,809 find with decision they make over and 1021 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:13,940 over and over again over time they end 1022 00:43:18,579 --> 00:43:16,130 up at the bottom of that pyramid very 1023 00:43:21,370 --> 00:43:18,589 far apart and I think your example of 1024 00:43:24,099 --> 00:43:21,380 women at work is a perfect example of 1025 00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:24,109 this when the decision is one that could 1026 00:43:29,470 --> 00:43:26,240 ease could legitimately go either way 1027 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:29,480 when it's an ambiguous decision or a 1028 00:43:34,299 --> 00:43:31,250 complicated decision and then you make a 1029 00:43:37,180 --> 00:43:34,309 jump you'll have even greater incentive 1030 00:43:40,450 --> 00:43:37,190 to justify the direction you took so the 1031 00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:40,460 woman who goes to work with young 1032 00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:42,260 children will say this is good for the 1033 00:43:45,549 --> 00:43:43,790 children this is good for me we need the 1034 00:43:47,770 --> 00:43:45,559 money i love my career I'm enjoying what 1035 00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:47,780 I'm doing and the woman who stays home 1036 00:43:51,579 --> 00:43:50,089 will say you're a horrible mother what a 1037 00:43:53,260 --> 00:43:51,589 kind of thing are you doing abandoning 1038 00:43:54,730 --> 00:43:53,270 your children with children need mothers 1039 00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,740 from the minute they're born over the 1040 00:43:59,620 --> 00:43:56,720 next forty seven years and you're being 1041 00:44:01,480 --> 00:43:59,630 a horrible mother so it's because the 1042 00:44:03,339 --> 00:44:01,490 woman who's staying at home needs to 1043 00:44:06,010 --> 00:44:03,349 justify the fact that she's given up her 1044 00:44:08,620 --> 00:44:06,020 career and her income in her work to do 1045 00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:08,630 this she has to really feel this was the 1046 00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:09,910 wisest and best 1047 00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:12,640 she has no incentive to think that for 1048 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:15,520 another woman it might be another 1049 00:44:20,099 --> 00:44:17,970 decision might be just as smart 1050 00:44:22,319 --> 00:44:20,109 conversely the woman who is it that the 1051 00:44:23,789 --> 00:44:22,329 career is going to tend to disparage the 1052 00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:23,799 woman staying at home look at her what 1053 00:44:28,170 --> 00:44:25,359 an idiot and she's foolish and her brain 1054 00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:28,180 will rot people whatever you know I mean 1055 00:44:32,849 --> 00:44:31,089 it's so of course not all women do this 1056 00:44:35,339 --> 00:44:32,859 so what I want to say is that when a 1057 00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:35,349 woman is ambivalent about whether to 1058 00:44:40,589 --> 00:44:37,780 work or stay home she will be more 1059 00:44:44,089 --> 00:44:40,599 motivated to justify the choice she 1060 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:44,099 makes and in doing that unfortunately to 1061 00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:46,930 disparage those women who make a 1062 00:44:51,299 --> 00:44:49,359 different choice I remember in the early 1063 00:44:53,460 --> 00:44:51,309 years of the women's movement in America 1064 00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:53,470 when it was so difficult for women 1065 00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:57,880 seeking careers in the men's world many 1066 00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:59,170 of them were really angry at women 1067 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:00,720 staying home and having children being 1068 00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:04,510 you know housewives and the women who 1069 00:45:11,730 --> 00:45:05,920 stayed home and had children really felt 1070 00:45:14,329 --> 00:45:11,740 their antipathy over time both sides 1071 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:14,339 really give to understand each other I 1072 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:16,690 was talking to Rebecca autzen about that 1073 00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:18,010 earlier today and it was saying that 1074 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:19,990 some women need to be able to feel 1075 00:45:23,549 --> 00:45:21,490 comfortable making choices that are 1076 00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:23,559 right for them because they have the 1077 00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:25,359 choice to do it not because they're 1078 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:27,400 they're living up to a feminist 1079 00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:29,170 expectation of how a woman should 1080 00:45:35,789 --> 00:45:34,000 perform so I think that really in 1081 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:35,799 perspective it's important well 1082 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:37,370 understanding though 1083 00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:40,490 that society is marking the woman's 1084 00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:43,520 ballot in a certain way that is that not 1085 00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:44,630 all you know we speak of free choice 1086 00:45:52,210 --> 00:45:48,710 well how free is your choice how free is 1087 00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:52,220 your choice when you if you live in a 1088 00:45:56,140 --> 00:45:54,800 community or a city or a culture where 1089 00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:56,150 you're expected to have children and 1090 00:45:59,920 --> 00:45:57,470 you're expected to stay home with them 1091 00:46:02,730 --> 00:45:59,930 it becomes more difficult to be the 1092 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:02,740 renegade who doesn't want to do that and 1093 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:07,040 conversely and conversely if everybody 1094 00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:08,810 around and children working it's easier 1095 00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:10,520 for you to do that but harder for you to 1096 00:46:18,270 --> 00:46:15,260 make a decision to stay home so if a 1097 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:18,280 woman chooses for example to stay home 1098 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:21,370 either giving up her career or 1099 00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:25,330 postponing it she needs to do so in the 1100 00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,160 full awareness of what this might mean 1101 00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:30,560 for her lifetime earning capacity for 1102 00:46:35,410 --> 00:46:33,100 her self-sufficiency and independence 1103 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:35,420 yes she might be in the throes of mad 1104 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:37,610 passionate love with the partner but you 1105 00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:39,290 know what if mad passionate person 1106 00:46:44,350 --> 00:46:42,080 vanishes and I mean these are questions 1107 00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:44,360 a woman needs to think of in the long 1108 00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:46,500 haul and 1109 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:49,119 and very very 1110 00:46:55,980 --> 00:46:51,910 mmm you mentioned earlier as an example 1111 00:46:58,140 --> 00:46:55,990 of a way a person might behave where 1112 00:46:59,819 --> 00:46:58,150 cognitive cognitive dissonance would 1113 00:47:04,680 --> 00:46:59,829 come into play would be taking on 1114 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:04,690 corruption in a workplace and my it made 1115 00:47:09,950 --> 00:47:06,249 me think of my experiences in health 1116 00:47:11,970 --> 00:47:09,960 care where I've watched typically a 1117 00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:11,980 certainly in Australia I'm sure it's a 1118 00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:13,599 universal thing bureaucratic 1119 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:16,049 organizations which systematically 1120 00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:19,450 repeat Prior bad decisions you know 1121 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:20,559 doing things that have been done before 1122 00:47:26,130 --> 00:47:24,249 and they have failed and the employees 1123 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:26,140 within these organizations observe how 1124 00:47:32,249 --> 00:47:28,930 the organization behaves and are 1125 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:32,259 publicly very critical of how these 1126 00:47:38,099 --> 00:47:35,049 decisions are made and what I wondered 1127 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:38,109 was how does this faceless pneus of 1128 00:47:43,049 --> 00:47:40,890 these organizations allow the 1129 00:47:45,779 --> 00:47:43,059 organizations to make these bad 1130 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:45,789 decisions and not correct and then not 1131 00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:50,170 correct them well if we're organizations 1132 00:47:56,849 --> 00:47:54,180 have a culture that encourages 1133 00:48:01,319 --> 00:47:56,859 Corrections of mistakes or suppresses 1134 00:48:04,589 --> 00:48:01,329 them and just as it just like 1135 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:04,599 individuals companies have personalities 1136 00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:07,450 in this respect and it has to come from 1137 00:48:12,799 --> 00:48:10,480 the top toyota has been famous for years 1138 00:48:15,930 --> 00:48:12,809 because it encourages its employees to 1139 00:48:17,819 --> 00:48:15,940 speak up when it sees mistakes and a 1140 00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:17,829 production line or better ways of doing 1141 00:48:23,220 --> 00:48:20,380 things of and the people who speak up is 1142 00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:23,230 we are not punished in many companies 1143 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:25,630 the person who points out mistakes is 1144 00:48:31,650 --> 00:48:27,730 punished one thing that an understanding 1145 00:48:33,989 --> 00:48:31,660 of dissonance shows us is that every 1146 00:48:39,529 --> 00:48:33,999 organization or political system needs a 1147 00:48:43,609 --> 00:48:39,539 self-correcting mechanism that is above 1148 00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:43,619 empower the people who made the mistake 1149 00:48:47,970 --> 00:48:46,180 what dissonant shows us it's going to be 1150 00:48:50,279 --> 00:48:47,980 very very difficult for the people who 1151 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:50,289 made the mistake to admit it and to 1152 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:52,450 correct it occasionally some rare 1153 00:48:58,049 --> 00:48:55,930 individuals do but it's very unlikely I 1154 00:48:59,940 --> 00:48:58,059 was telling people today the former head 1155 00:49:03,509 --> 00:48:59,950 of the Food and Drug Administration here 1156 00:49:07,269 --> 00:49:03,519 just seems to have noticed that the 1157 00:49:09,459 --> 00:49:07,279 people who approve a drug for the FDA 1158 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:09,469 shouldn't be the ones in charge of 1159 00:49:15,130 --> 00:49:13,130 looking into its later risk factors and 1160 00:49:16,569 --> 00:49:15,140 deciding to remove the drug from the 1161 00:49:18,459 --> 00:49:16,579 market if they have once approved it 1162 00:49:20,370 --> 00:49:18,469 they're not going to be the ones to say 1163 00:49:23,709 --> 00:49:20,380 you know what this drug is too risky 1164 00:49:25,569 --> 00:49:23,719 likewise the prosecutors who have gone 1165 00:49:27,459 --> 00:49:25,579 after put an innocent person in prison 1166 00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:27,469 they're not the ones who should be 1167 00:49:34,439 --> 00:49:29,569 reassessing the case if new DNA comes 1168 00:49:38,819 --> 00:49:34,449 along so in that way companies like like 1169 00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:38,829 countries need independent impartial 1170 00:49:43,870 --> 00:49:41,839 panels to assess how the mistake 1171 00:49:47,339 --> 00:49:43,880 happened and what can be done to correct 1172 00:49:52,209 --> 00:49:47,349 it BP would seem to be a case in point 1173 00:49:54,729 --> 00:49:52,219 absolutely in fact a scary example of 1174 00:49:56,439 --> 00:49:54,739 how an organization is functioning at 1175 00:49:59,979 --> 00:49:56,449 the moment the last thing I really 1176 00:50:02,739 --> 00:49:59,989 wanted to ask you was to just discuss 1177 00:50:05,529 --> 00:50:02,749 briefly how we can move forward as an 1178 00:50:07,779 --> 00:50:05,539 organization as a community so as a 1179 00:50:09,969 --> 00:50:07,789 community of skeptical community how can 1180 00:50:15,849 --> 00:50:09,979 we move forward knowing what we know 1181 00:50:17,559 --> 00:50:15,859 about dissonance knowing we we focus so 1182 00:50:19,269 --> 00:50:17,569 much in skepticism on understanding 1183 00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:19,279 human psychology but we seem to 1184 00:50:22,479 --> 00:50:21,169 sometimes just throw that all out the 1185 00:50:24,849 --> 00:50:22,489 window when it comes to really actually 1186 00:50:27,669 --> 00:50:24,859 taking things on how can we move forward 1187 00:50:30,099 --> 00:50:27,679 gently well do you have any suggestions 1188 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:30,109 of how we can really get over get past 1189 00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:33,890 our dissonance we have to keep our eye 1190 00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:37,609 on what it is we want to accomplish if 1191 00:50:41,790 --> 00:50:41,209 we want to get someone to give up their 1192 00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:41,800 faith in 1193 00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:45,280 this is going to be an unlikely goal if 1194 00:50:50,970 --> 00:50:48,760 we want someone who is religious to 1195 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:50,980 accept evolution and allow it to be 1196 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:52,930 taught in the schools different strategy 1197 00:50:58,770 --> 00:50:56,890 follows the point is you keep you keep 1198 00:51:02,880 --> 00:50:58,780 your eye on what it is you want to 1199 00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:02,890 accomplish and how best to do it so it 1200 00:51:08,730 --> 00:51:05,920 may be that it's a matter of changing 1201 00:51:12,180 --> 00:51:08,740 the institutional structure as we heard 1202 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:12,190 today the importance of making sure 1203 00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:13,690 there are good science classes in 1204 00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:17,680 schools and so forth over the objections 1205 00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:18,910 of people who would like to remove 1206 00:51:25,350 --> 00:51:21,880 science classes for me the essence of 1207 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:25,360 understanding dissonance is 1208 00:51:32,130 --> 00:51:27,610 that when we argue with someone a loved 1209 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:32,140 one or just another person that were 1210 00:51:38,940 --> 00:51:34,810 arguing with you don't want to put them 1211 00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:38,950 in a state of dissonance the as soon as 1212 00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:41,800 you say to somebody what were you 1213 00:51:47,130 --> 00:51:44,260 thinking how could you possibly have 1214 00:51:49,140 --> 00:51:47,140 done that fallen for that terrible scam 1215 00:51:52,020 --> 00:51:49,150 that magazine scam and spent thousands 1216 00:51:53,610 --> 00:51:52,030 of dollars on that scam but Louise are 1217 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:53,620 you thinking can you see this guy's a 1218 00:52:01,140 --> 00:51:57,490 con artist enough 37 anyway what you're 1219 00:52:02,580 --> 00:52:01,150 saying is how could you be so stupid now 1220 00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:02,590 what is the recipient of that message 1221 00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:05,680 going to hear their buddies think what 1222 00:52:11,580 --> 00:52:09,250 they have a choice I was stupid and I 1223 00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:11,590 did these things oh my god I'm stupid or 1224 00:52:17,010 --> 00:52:15,280 they're going to say I'm not stupid I 1225 00:52:18,660 --> 00:52:17,020 thought I was doing the smartest 1226 00:52:21,450 --> 00:52:18,670 possible thing I thought this was a good 1227 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:21,460 thing to do and that nice person offered 1228 00:52:26,070 --> 00:52:24,490 me magazines and yeah I I thought I was 1229 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:26,080 being generous in kind and I was 1230 00:52:28,980 --> 00:52:27,610 thinking out of it for the family I was 1231 00:52:32,310 --> 00:52:28,990 trying to I thought maybe i'll make some 1232 00:52:34,350 --> 00:52:32,320 money for the fit okay so if you make 1233 00:52:36,510 --> 00:52:34,360 them feel stupid you have sent them 1234 00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:36,520 right into the arms of the scammers 1235 00:52:40,620 --> 00:52:39,040 because now they're going to put more 1236 00:52:41,970 --> 00:52:40,630 good money after bad 1237 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:41,980 to try to show that they were right 1238 00:52:48,030 --> 00:52:45,010 after all so understanding dissonance 1239 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:48,040 the first thing means we have to keep 1240 00:52:55,260 --> 00:52:52,570 for ourselves cognition separate I can 1241 00:52:57,690 --> 00:52:55,270 do a foolish thing and still be a smart 1242 00:53:00,330 --> 00:52:57,700 person I can do an incompetent thing and 1243 00:53:03,150 --> 00:53:00,340 still be a competent person I can still 1244 00:53:05,370 --> 00:53:03,160 I can I can have done this hurtful thing 1245 00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:05,380 to someone I love and still be a kind 1246 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:08,110 person but I have to accept what I did 1247 00:53:12,690 --> 00:53:10,330 learn from it and make sure I don't do 1248 00:53:13,980 --> 00:53:12,700 it again and in the same way in dealing 1249 00:53:16,530 --> 00:53:13,990 with someone else we have to make sure 1250 00:53:19,230 --> 00:53:16,540 we don't make them feel incompetent 1251 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:19,240 stupid and foolish or we'll lose sorry 1252 00:53:23,070 --> 00:53:20,650 Nessus we have to remember that we're 1253 00:53:26,070 --> 00:53:23,080 the same animal that we're talking 1254 00:53:27,540 --> 00:53:26,080 talking to exactly written dr. Carol 1255 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:27,550 taveres thank you very much for your 1256 00:53:31,620 --> 00:53:29,170 time it's been lovely having you on the 1257 00:53:33,330 --> 00:53:31,630 skeptics own podcast I hope you enjoy 1258 00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:33,340 the rest of your town thank you so much 1259 00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:49,740 this is desirae shell hosted skeptically 1260 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:52,000 speaking check out our website at 1261 00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:54,370 skeptically speaking calm and listen to 1262 00:54:02,010 --> 00:53:58,240 us live on CJ sr 88.5 FM in Edmonton 1263 00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:02,020 Alberta Canada I now return you to the 1264 00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:16,529 Richard yeah yeah i think i've deleted a 1265 00:54:24,509 --> 00:54:19,599 video what oh no no just took of the ufl 1266 00:54:27,059 --> 00:54:24,519 the dog martin loudly than everything 1267 00:54:28,859 --> 00:54:27,069 Lucas it's only its synthesis slightly 1268 00:54:30,929 --> 00:54:28,869 better instructions on this video oh 1269 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:30,939 I've recorded that the whole thing that 1270 00:54:35,669 --> 00:54:33,130 it disappeared into it another time or 1271 00:54:37,140 --> 00:54:35,679 and why the listeners were listening we 1272 00:54:39,660 --> 00:54:37,150 went outside the test a video camera 1273 00:54:41,039 --> 00:54:39,670 here cut the UFO far they stepped out 1274 00:54:42,660 --> 00:54:41,049 and they flew away we got it all on the 1275 00:54:44,099 --> 00:54:42,670 camera and you have to leave I know but 1276 00:54:45,779 --> 00:54:44,109 I'm sorry but you just have to believe 1277 00:54:47,609 --> 00:54:45,789 it's just take our word for it really 1278 00:54:49,519 --> 00:54:47,619 did happen it did happen for real and 1279 00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:49,529 we're ready for interviews in the world 1280 00:54:54,689 --> 00:54:52,689 where do the circuit oh another great 1281 00:54:56,219 --> 00:54:54,699 show thank you I believe anything after 1282 00:54:57,809 --> 00:54:56,229 that thank you to our reporters who did 1283 00:55:00,989 --> 00:54:57,819 a wonderful job again out in the world 1284 00:55:04,319 --> 00:55:00,999 London and Las Vegas we are going global 1285 00:55:09,029 --> 00:55:04,329 and I'm going global in fact on monday 1286 00:55:12,299 --> 00:55:09,039 i'm off with dr h e2 dragon dragon Conan 1287 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:12,309 pirate I walk BioTime work warp rug head 1288 00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:14,410 Kylie Sturgis is of course joining us 1289 00:55:18,689 --> 00:55:16,689 all the way from Perth another time war 1290 00:55:21,359 --> 00:55:18,699 this is oh it is just getting out of 1291 00:55:24,829 --> 00:55:21,369 control it is and you never joinder step 1292 00:55:27,359 --> 00:55:24,839 9 i know i'm i'm trapped in my own zone 1293 00:55:30,449 --> 00:55:27,369 it's called a company that i try and run 1294 00:55:32,339 --> 00:55:30,459 but no it's it's good i serious me do it 1295 00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:32,349 serious media yeah yeah we've got a lot 1296 00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:33,609 of good things happening but I tell you 1297 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:35,380 what I'd much rather be jet-setting it 1298 00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:38,170 as part of the zone team one day one day 1299 00:55:41,549 --> 00:55:40,329 until then I'll just have to be happy 1300 00:55:43,650 --> 00:55:41,559 doing these little intros and outros 1301 00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:43,660 maybe we can see if we can find another 1302 00:55:47,370 --> 00:55:45,910 UFO outside Stefan shall we try let's go 1303 00:55:50,249 --> 00:55:47,380 have a look let's do it I think I'll 1304 00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:50,259 felis camera out now here we go although 1305 00:56:01,620 --> 00:55:55,589 you 1306 00:56:05,370 --> 00:56:01,630 zone visit our website at www skeptics 1307 00:56:08,349 --> 00:56:05,380 on TV for comments contacts and extra 1308 00:56:08,359 --> 00:56:13,390 our skin